Black Indie Fantasy Writing with Tatiana Obey

Black Indie Fantasy Writing with Tatiana Obey

C. M. Lockhart: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to everyone listening to the Written In Melanin podcast, the place where you come and get your weekly dose of melanated creativity. I'm your host, C. M. Lockhart, an author of fantasy books featuring Black girls who aren't all that nice and the owner of the Melanin Library, an online database of books written by Black authors.

And in this space, I share with you everything I've learned on my journey as a Black and Indie author. I'm glad you're here. And today, you guys, I am here with one of my favorite people, Tatiana Obey, and she is an author who writes badass characters slaying dragons. She enjoys combining action with character driven stories that feature diverse heroes and heroines.

And her debut novel, Bones the Wind, is a 2022 BBA or Black Book Award winner and a 2022 Indie Ink Award finalist. She once taught English in South Korea. Studied abroad in Japan and spent her debut year traveling the world. And she is here today to talk to us about her amazing, wonderful, incredible [00:01:00] duology and a couple of other things, because if you guys are new to the podcast, you may not know this, but Tatiana is my friend and she also watches anime and I don't know where this conversation is going to go.

So buckle up for it. Welcome to the podcast again, Tatiana.

Tatiana Obey: I'm always happy to be here. We always have a very good time.

C. M. Lockhart: We do! We do! So if your first time tuning in, I do want to let you know that Tatiana was on the podcast last year and we talked about her novella Sistah Samurai which is also available. And if are anime person, girly, boy, whoever, you need go you need to go read it right now. So go it, come back, listen podcast, to this one.

It's great. You have so much content consume and I love you. But that being said, assuming that this their first interacting with you, aside from your bio, please introduce yourself to our listeners. 

Tatiana Obey: Yes. So my name is Tatiana Obey. I write badass characters slaying dragons. So my first book is Bones to the Wind, and it's [00:02:00] a completed duology with Dragon Your Bones. So these two are complete.

C. M. Lockhart: I have signed copies too. So you're listening to this on the podcast, you should be watching it on YouTube so you can see these amazing covers. Just throwing that out there.

Tatiana Obey: Oh, thank you. And then I also have a novella, Sistah Samurai. So yeah, this one's for all of the anime lovers out there.

C. M. Lockhart: Yes, which honestly, It's interesting because I was like, uh, switching up my bookshelf, trying to clean up and make sure that I have like things behind me actually on display, right? And as I was going through it, I'm pretty sure that I have everything Tatiana has ever written on my shelf.

Tatiana Obey: I mean, there are things has not seen the light of day.

C. M. Lockhart: Fair, everything that's available for purchase, I have a copy of. And I'm like, that's wild because I am not type of person where I usually like, buy things. Ooh, I like you. Cute. I'll get it from my library. I'm not, I'm not going keep it on my [00:03:00] right. But I'm like, no, I have multiple copies of everything that you've written.

I'm like, oh, does this make me a fan I think this makes me a fan. This is cool.

Tatiana Obey: I think I get to that point too, because usually I, You know, like you only have a limited amount of space for your bookshelf. So I'm like, okay, I usually will purchase all of my five star reads. So once I start collecting them and seeing, oh, there's multiple of this author, I'm like, oh, okay. So I guess, I guess I like him then. 

C. M. Lockhart: Yes Literally that, literally that and it's one of those things where it's just like as an author who also writes, I don't know if you have this for me, because again, if y'all to the podcast, if y'all watch the YouTube channel, y'all know I'm a harsh judge. I DNF books, like breathing, I don't know.

You got to really convince It's not, will I finish the books? Your job convince me to read the book right? I'm just, I'm not the ideal reader most authors. I acknowledge that. But it's also like with your books, I literally started reading it and I was, by chapter eight of the first I was so sad because I was like, Oh my God, I can only read [00:04:00] for the first time once.

And this is going to be great. This is going to be amazing. And Y'all already know this. I am a huge stan of A Forging of Age duology, Dragon your Bones, Bones to the Wind, said them backwards, but Bones to the Wind had me in a choke hold. When I tell you I was up to 5:00 AM multiple nights because Rasia is unhinged, but she is also really incredible.

But she's also unhinged. When I tell you she's the epitome of, if I say I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And everybody around her is like, well, she says she's going to do it. So I guess we're all on board for the adventure now. Who's going to stop her? I can't, you know, and they try. And that's what I loved about Nico.

She really and, okay, this is a slight spoiler for the book, but it's not because until you read it, it's not really a spoiler, but there's a moment in the book where Rasia and Nico, they can't stand each other. That's all the background information you need to know. They don't like each other at all, but they're teamed up.

They're paired up. Nico messes up Rasia's [00:05:00] plan. Rasia is upset. Okay, she's been, she's been knocked out cold for like a solid day and a half. First thing she does when wakes up, she's like, okay, so what happened? Where's where's the thing we were hunting? And they were like, well, we had to make a choice.

She was like, it was already half dead. Why would you? Why would you make that choice? What is wrong with you? Mind you, Rasia has broken ribs and she's like, whatever, I'm leaving. It's the middle of the desert. I ain't got no water, whatever. I'm, I'm a thug. I'm just go. And Nico's like, we're in the middle of the desert. Calm down. Right. plan. Rasia's like, I don't you. I don't need you. And she was literally epitome of Mushu and Mulan like, dishonor on you, dishonor on your mama, dishonor on your cow, like I hate of you. I hate all of you. And Nico tries to stop her.

And Rasia was like, fight me, bruh. And Nico was like, I'm not going to fight you have broken ribs. And she was like, [00:06:00] use your magic and fight me, bruh. Bodies her and was like, exactly. And then just goes on about her day. 

Tatiana Obey: And you know, it's funny because like, people will ask me like, so what's your favorite fight scenes to write? And you'd think it would be like the very long cinematic ones, but it's usually like the funny, like the character ones like that, that I enjoy writing so much.

C. M. Lockhart: I lived for it. I was like, it's just the pure level of disrespect that was in the book. And again, if you're listening I have, I need you to know that I have raved to Tatiana for hours her book already when I met her when I went Texas, but I need y'all to know how great this book is because moments like that are that are missing from a lot of fantasy that I read and like I'll say the modern era right?

It's just like, I want fun. I want characters who are like, yeah, I can absolutely body you. And that's what I'm going to do, right? We're going to throw hands. And then I'm going to, I'm going to go about my day. Thanks. And it's just the level of disrespect that was in that moment because Rasia [00:07:00] told her there's, there are giant monsters in this book right?

Again, not going to ruin it for you. Just know that there are giant monsters in the book. Nico can use magic. And Rasia was like, you're not going to mess up my coming of age journey. By using your magic and cheating, right? No, no, no, no, no. Rasia, Broken Ribs. She told her not to use her magic against the giant monster trying to actively kill them. And she gets up and she's like, fight me. And I want you to use your magic. Come at me with all you've got because it doesn't matter. I'm still going to win. And then she does. It's just that disrespect. And then she, she, they, they have a giant windship. And she just, sails off on essentially a skateboard and they cannot catch her and they have magic.

Tatiana Obey: Yeah, yeah, like I, you know, and that was kind of like the inspiration behind Rasia's character, like her character specifically, like came to me in high school, and she's haunted me like ever since then, like I've, I like, you know, like I gotta, I [00:08:00] had to eventually write a book or she wouldn't leave alone.

But like, one of her inspirations was like, I was reading all these fantasy books and like, you know, like the girls, like they didn't do anything, you know, they had to be saved and I'm just like, and even the ones that are supposed, were supposedly supposed to be like strong female characters or action oriented female characters, they didn't do anything

C. M. Lockhart: They didn't do

Tatiana Obey: I'm just I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't do this.

Like, okay, Rasia, let's go because this is ridiculous. 

C. M. Lockhart: This is, this is, this is crazy. This is ridiculous you listening to this podcast this why we are friends. This is why we are friends because literally, every time someone asks me, like, Oh, what was the inspiration behind Brandi? like, I don't know. I just wanted a girl who was badass, actually did badass things.

I don't know. if you're going to tell me you're an assassin, be an assassin. If you're going to be best fighter in your village, fight somebody. I want to see it, you know? Anywho, I could rave about this book and I will probably rave about this for a good long while. Rest my, it was a solid five star read.

Book, book two. I gotta be real [00:09:00] with you, Tatiana. I gotta be real with you. I loved book two. But you already know what my beef was with book two. So I ain't going ruin for nobody because I can't talk about book two without telling you what happens in book one, but it was also really good. And it's one of those things where I will say this because I will sit here and about you all day.

And that's mean, it could be, and that's want to but I'm assuming that there are other things. just. Tatiana has a way of handling things that would absolutely infuriate me in other books, and has, and has. Like, I've taken my beef up with other authors before, like, why would you do this?

I don't know, you were on a good roll, and then you just I don't know, you stopped. Right? to the, not bones to the, Dragon your Bones. There was a moment, there was a moment, and I was just like, Tatiana, don't do this to babes. Don't do this to me. But then I understood. But then I understood. And now I'm like, you know what?

I'm at peace with this. [00:10:00] I'm at peace. accept it.

Tatiana Obey: It took her a while. It took a while.

C. M. Lockhart: It took a while. At first, I was like, ah! you mean this is the end? But I accept it. I accept it. we're to that pain. Okay, what I want to talk to you about specifically, What did you learn from writing, uh, Bones to the Wind and your Bones? Because this is, this was like your first, like, actually published books, and it was a duology.

And in case guys don't know, these are chunkers. At least to me. I don't know if y'all out here reading Prior to the Orange Tree, you're like, oh my god, what, it's only 500 pages? Like,

Tatiana Obey: Right.

C. M. Lockhart: Right? But to me, I'm like, oh, these are 500 These are, these are hefty. Love this for me, for me and for you if you read But Also, you wrote a duology for your first foray into publishing and you did [00:11:00] did it well, like the cover, formatting, all of so what, what was that journey like? And what, like, you take from it?

Tatiana Obey: So, in regards to duology, like, it's, it's really a duology because I wrote this whole story at the same time. So,

C. M. Lockhart: skill.

Tatiana Obey: And, you know, like, being an indie author, it's very expensive to, like, pay for proofreading and copyediting by the page. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to split this up in two. There's no way. There's no way it's gonna work. If I did not, because the first book definitely helped me pay for the second book, so, you know, that is kind of what made, like, this possible. but, like, because I have written other things, I know that my natural book length is that long. It's pretty, it's pretty long.

So, and that's from writing other, that's from writing other things. And, but that's hard. That's hard when indie publishing, like, I feel as if there's more of an [00:12:00] advantage for shorter works within the indie publishing space. One, because it's easier, it's less expensive, but you can also, most of the time, charge the same amount for a smaller book in a different genre.

So, you know, sometimes there are very specific in genre things, like fantasy, that makes it different from other genres and makes it a little bit different, genre. To pub to publish things. for example, I know a lot of fantasy authors, they do prefer KU because, you know, you get a little bit by the page read, and it's a longer book, you can hold people's attention.

That does favor fan fantasy for KU, but I decided not to go. I decided not to do KU because I really wanted my books available in libraries, and available to people. That was one of the big determining decisions why I decided not to do that. And just to also kind of have a little bit more control over my own work.

But I think the biggest thing that I learned from the duology is that I'm a good writer and I know that's weird. That's weird to say, but like before this duology, I [00:13:00] And before you, for a lot of authors before they publish, you are kind of in a silo when you're writing. You are kind of, you know, especially before you find your community, if you, before you have writer friends.

You know, like, I've been writing my entire life up through elementary, middle, high school, college. Like, I said I was gonna take a break from college and end up writing fan fiction instead. And I think that was also a big lesson because at that point, you know, like, you are sharing your work. It's a little bit, a little bit more safeguards.

But you do get that critique, and you do get that criticism, and you're like, oh, this is what I need to work on. This is what, you know, like, I'm not very good at. and when I decided to publish, it was more of a, a pandemic decision. It was like, well, shit, you know, like, well, shit, things are going down and, you know, I have always wanted to publish a book and I was like, well, I'm going to get this done and I'm going to do it, but I don't think I had any real sense when I published it, despite all the years of 

All the years I've put into writing, despite all the [00:14:00] years I've put into craft, all the years of reading and everything else like that, that when I put it out and reviews started coming in, I was like, oh, they're just being, they're just being nice.

You they're just being a

C. M. Lockhart: love people.

Tatiana Obey: Like, oh, I got the nice people. I mean, even after I published, it took some time for it to finally seep into my head, like, Oh, I'm a good writer. And, you know, that's a real, because, compared to traditional publishing, in traditional publishing, you have those definitive markers.

You know, you get an agent, you get someone to pick up the book, and those are usually the signs that validate your work. I'm a good writer. But you don't have that in indie publishing, and oftentimes, you have to make those goals for yourself. You have to validate yourself. And so, that's definitely, like, difficult to do.

C. M. Lockhart: Amen and there are so many things in there that I'm like, oh, wow, can probably have whole podcast conversation about because, you know, As like, we're both [00:15:00] indie authors, right? there are so many decisions that have to go in, into publishing the book, that especially when you're doing it the first time, you're like, is this the right move?

Especially if you're going kind of, I don't want to say against the grain, but kind of against the very popular advice, like, oh, put your book, on Amazon, your book in KU. This is how you make money, right? I feel like that definitely works as a valid path, but it's not always the best one. And I will say that, know, from my own experience kind of what I from with your books and of other authors that I know, it's just kind of like, okay, I feel like KU is fast.

Like if you were looking for that fast kind of traction for sure, because people, people do pay for a Kindle Unlimited and they will give your book a try simply because they have access to right? But I feel like when you go through other avenues and like you said, you make your book available in libraries and you make your book widely available, which isn't an option.

If you're in [00:16:00] Kindle Unlimited, you have a certain level of longevity with your books that I just haven't seen people really have with KU at least not talking about publicly. I don't know. I don't know the numbers behind the scenes or anything like that, but, when people are kind of like promoting their books pushing them, I see that with a lot of indie authors, especially when they are on like Amazon, there's like this huge right?

Right around when the book releases. And then you kind of, you of don't hear about it anymore. It's on to the next project, next book, next thing that's being released. So I'm kind of glad that you touched on it because I feel that's something that I personally would want to just, you know, look into more and be like, huh, I wonder how much of this is genuinely like this works versus does right?

Tatiana Obey: and like, that was also, in my considerations to how I decided to publish as well. One of the, another reason why I decided to go wide is, our target audience. Like, do have a lot of popular, you know, popular advice in regards to publishing, but, you know, I'm looking at [00:17:00] BIPOC Black fantasy readers.

And to be quite honest, the ones who read fantasy are usually reading trad books and now you have the fantasy romance and the romance readers, but those are more specifically KU. We are talking about people who like epic fantasy, what me and you write. They're still very much more in the trad space.

So those are, that's the audience that I'm targeting. You know, they're not in that, like they're not in that space. I'm trying to gear myself more towards where my audience is. So like when I did do this, I, you know, Definitely thought about it in the long term, you know, eventually my name will be out there.

Eventually people have confidence enough to pick up my book for the price that I've, that I've, I think it's valued for.

C. M. Lockhart: Yeah. And I think that's also a thing, like as an indie author, it's kind of like the price of your books, because it's just like, I'm so sorry that this book is what it is, but like also, I make money off this, you guys. It's it's not a hobby. I'm not doing this for fun. Okay, sorry. [00:18:00] Coughing fit slightly because I stayed up super watching the Apothecary Diaries and it's catching up to me, but neither here nor here nor there. You mentioned something that I'm like, y'all just need to listen to Tatiana talk because she's dropping so many, like, nuggets where I'm just also personally like, yes, like, knowing where your target audience is because also understanding that at least for me with KU, right? you said, that's a lot of romanticy, a lot of like, straight up contemporary romance. And also books that are quick, books that are like 100, 120, 150, 200 pages max. You're like, you're getting into it, you're reading it, and then you're moving on to the next book. It's usually not a five or six hundred page, you KU slog, right, with another book that you also need to get into, you know, it's a completely different demographic.

I think doing your research and understanding that. Is a really big part of being an indie author. you said something else earlier that I was just like, yup, yup. And it's like [00:19:00] that imposter syndrome that you have at the beginning, it's just like, you believe in yourself, you've been doing this thing, you've been getting, you know, like you said, feedback from different places, but it's also like, okay, now your book is out in the world and then you get those nice, you the good reviews and you're like, wait you tell me it was garbage? Like, wait, why? Why? Why are you not being mean to me right now? And it's, and it's kind of wild. then it's just like, like you said, it's that validation. And I think as an author, whether indie trad or whatever, like, it's really important to set your own validation measures that's outside of someone telling you that you're doing a good job. Like, there's always going to be that reality there, right? like, when someone tells you're doing a good job, that's immediate, whatever chemical brain, dopamine, serotonin, whatever. The right? But, it's also like, You kind of need measures where it's like you look at it and you're like, oh, wait a second. They're not lying. Like actually am doing something here. Like, I don't [00:20:00] know, in my, in my head, the meme in my, in my head that popped up was the one that was like, up, let them cook. Right? Like, You need to have that moment with Wait tell your imposter syndrome, up, let her cook, right? Anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense because, y'all, I'm just completely out of touch with reality and what the youngins are doing I just need, I'm yelling at them to get off my lawn on Twitter at this point in my life. But, all that being said, We do have a question from Ben in the chat and asks, how did you arm yourself with the knowledge about your target audience?

And I think that's a really good question because I we talk about doing research and understanding where they're at, but it's like, also, how did you come about this knowledge?

Tatiana Obey: So, Chelsea knows like how crazy I am in regards to like genre and like just knowing the genre.

C. M. Lockhart: Listen to the previous podcast she, goes ham. She her stuff, you [00:21:00] guys.

Tatiana Obey: But, one, I think a lot of it comes out of passion. Like, I've been specifically in the fantasy space my entire life. I've kind of grown up in it. Like, if you asked me about, like, other genres outside of SSF, I probably couldn't tell you anything. But I have very good general timeline, like, how fantasy has developed here in Western publishing.

Like, I did, my high school senior thesis on the publishing industry and like, sending querying agents out for my thesis.

C. M. Lockhart: I'm so sorry. She, this thing with Tatiana. She just casually drops all these things that are just exceptional. Like, wait second, you a senior thesis on the publishing industry? Like, let's rewind.

Tatiana Obey: So, like, I, I've always been very up to date about it. I lost touch with it, with it a little bit after college and then kind of got back into it once I decided, okay, this is something that [00:22:00] I want to do. Let me go read and see what's current, right? So I did go and do the research. I picked up a lot of books that, you know, like were current, people that were being published and just to see what was out there.

and, you know, just knowing how, and then you want to talk specifically about your target audience because All the books in fantasy, right? Like there's so many subgenres and it doesn't speak to everybody and you know, so I want to know how I, how can I reach my audience and where were they and what were they talking about?

What books were they talking about? And luckily, you know, like my audience is very a reflection of me. they love read the same books that I read. So like, You know, like, I follow them on social media. I interact with them because I like the same books. I'm like, oh yeah, that one was really good, you know?

You know? So, like, they give me recommendations and I'm like, yes, I know that those are the same books that I like. And knowing that, you [00:23:00] do very much realize This is how, above all type of marketing techniques, word of mouth is still the most important, marketing that you can get for your book. So if you make sure that your book is, you know, like people close it, and they want talk to someone about it, That's powerful.

C. M. Lockhart: It is. really is. Because Again, both sides of it. Partially as a really critical reader because, side note, I'll come back to that. What, a reader but also as an author, right. It's just like, I've seen, like, as an author, how, how How the numbers change when one person gets on the internet and they're like, Oh my God, this book was really good.

I need you guys to go, go read it. But then when you have several people saying, Why y'all not reading this book? This book was this book was that, know, that is more powerful than any any infographic, any Anything that [00:24:00] me as the author myself could post, that validation, that of confidence from someone else, it's just like, oh, it's kind of like when someone walks up to you and they're like, hi, super, you know, I'm super hardworking, right?

You should me. is a lot convincing than if someone who actually knows you and has worked with you is like, hey, you should that person because they're super hardworking. It's just a completely different perception. Right? But also a reader, fun fact, when I met Tatiana in Texas, one of the things that did is we went to a Barnes and Noble and we walked around and it was great. It was great. But also feel in heart Tatiana is such a sweet summer child because she, she everything a chance. And I'm over here first page. Nope. I am absolutely not reading this. And so as, as a reader, I how powerful it is to read something that [00:25:00] completely, I don't say alters your brain chemistry, but like really alters your brain chemistry and you're like, Oh, this was great. I'm really happy. I want to talk to someone about this. I'm going to tell someone who knows nothing about this book, everything that happens in this book, just they can be caught up to the moment that can talk to them about it. Right. It's like that, is a special kind of feeling that I feel like someone who writes books, that's I want to give someone.

But as someone who reads books, I'm like, Oh, this is why I've been so dissatisfied with all the things that I've been reading lately. this is What this is the magic that has been missing. This is the promise that has not been delivered on for me But like y'all know I'm a harsh critic I will DNF a book really quick fast in a hurry because I'm like I too much too many things to do to be Reading a book that does not bring me joy I'm doing this for fun.

I'm paid to do this. I am absolutely not going to be miserable doing it that no but It of goes back to what you said of like reading within your genre and understanding, like, how it works and what books are popular and why. [00:26:00] You know, of these days I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get around possibly to, to reading, uh, that book that y'all, if you listen to the podcast and if you know me, you know, good that super popular book about the girl, it's blue and it's red. And I'm, haven't I'm like, I'm probably not going to read it considering what's in it. But also like talked to people and I've parts of it and I'm like, oh, I understand why people like it, but it's also like, for I'm oh, I don't want, I can appreciate this for what it is, but also recognizing that same breath that I don't want do what this is doing.

I want to capture this feeling, but in completely different way, you know, and I feel like as authors, that's also a really powerful feeling of being oh, I like what you're doing. I respect it. I see you. I'm going to watch you so that I can continue to learn. But also no, I'm not target audience boo.

I'm gonna stay in my lane, thrive over here. You know. Get your bag get your bag.

Tatiana Obey: but I also think [00:27:00] that's why word of mouth marketing is so important in regards to books because a lot of the times you do form a relationship to the person that's recommending it. So often, you know, like they know which books you like and which books you don't like, and they'll recommend specific books for you, you to like your taste or, you know, like you're confident in like this, your taste matches with this persons taste and you're like they didn't like it I know I don't like it so you see these relationships forming and you're kind of like building up that trust and I'm very opposite of you like I give things a chance. I do not DNF a book but I will DNF a series. I will definitely say if I did not enjoy a book or not.

C. M. Lockhart: And I appreciate that about I mean I, I acknowledge that I am the problem, right? I know about myself. I live in my truth, right? But I'm also like, I don't mind being problem.

Tatiana Obey: [00:28:00] That's fine. I think, like, my, like, mine is definitely, like, the curiosity. Like, I'm like, okay, let me go experience it for myself and see if I have the same experiences as everybody else. Or, you know, sometimes it's like, well, I wonder. I do, sometimes I do read and pick up books. For marketing research to say, okay, why was this popular?

Like, what did it do? Why did it become popular at this time? You know, like why are the spinoffs the successes? So sometimes I like to look at, look at it in regards to like influence. How it's influenced the genre and why. Like, why now? Because even, within the Black fantasy, like, within the Black fantasy space or even within the speculative fiction space, you've seen trends come and go.

the wider genre trends, but then there's even just smaller trends within, you know, within publishing. Like, right now, I feel like we're in a, like, a horror girl, Black phase.

C. M. Lockhart: We are definitely in a black vampire era.

Tatiana Obey: Yeah, yeah. So it's very interesting to see, like, even just the small trends, the ones that are, you know, like, popping up [00:29:00] and fading away.

C. M. Lockhart: Oh, yeah. And I think kind going, connecting it back to what you said earlier about word of you know, the ones that are super popular are the ones where literally everybody and their mama was recommending it. And to the point where it's like, okay, if I said, Hey, I'm on TikTok, and I just saw someone recommend me three black fantasy books, I bet you could name two of them off top of your head. The two that were absolutely in that list, you know, and but also like, That kind of trust in the author where it's like, you know, people will recommend certain those books, and I don't even have to say them. You know exactly what books I'm talking about and people will recommend having not even read them.

And the thing that I guess also wild me as an author is that people will recommend them having read them and not enjoyed them to the utmost fullest and still be like, Hey, but you should read it. And I'm like, that is thing that I want to study where it's just like, okay. You didn't [00:30:00] even enjoy this.

Like, you didn't rate this 5 You didn't rate this stars. You barely gave You're like, this is a 5 star rounded up. And it still made a recommendation And I'm that, that is interesting. What about this And I'm like, part of probably right? Because everyone's talking about it.

Algorithm, right? But then another part of that's the part that trying to figure out, Like, you read this. But then you gave it two and a half, but then you picked up the second book when came out. And I'm like, this interesting. This is wild. But I digress. I digress. You know, I feel like, again, it's just when enough people are talking about it, you know, it makes it so that, know, people want to be part of the conversation, you know?

And. don't know. I feel like that's also a kind of a hurdle as an indie author just in general is like, Hey, getting people to read your book and leave reviews be like, please go the But that also brings me to the other thing that I want to talk to you about, [00:31:00] which is reviewing books as an author, right?

Because one thing that I have learned to do don't review I made it clear on my channel. I was I read more than I talk about, but for the most part, if I don't, if DNF a book, unless it's egregious, Unless it does something that fully upsets me. That one book that said Goku was good dad.

Now, rest in peace Akira Toriyama. You know, he's gone. Hence our memorial shirts today. Moment of silence for him. But unless it's egregious. Like telling me that Goku is a good dad in the book. What show are you watching? What, what, what, what, anime, what manga were you getting into? Because I would just like to know how leaving your child in the middle of a desert with dinosaurs is being a good parent.

I would just like to know. I would just, curious. I'm curious. But I digress. I digress. Point unless it's something like that, I'm not going talk Right? I try [00:32:00] to only talk about the books that I actually really enjoy. Right? But you, on the other hand. This is what I love about Tatiana. I'm honestly the mean one, but oh my god, y'all don't know, Tatiana is scathing with pen.

Oh my god. She will wreck your little feelings quick, fast, in a hurry, and do it with a smile. And she's like, I'm just helping. And she is. But you're like, oh my god, you did not have to get the shredder for my emotions. But she's such a thorough reviewer, you guys. I, I, I tease and I just, and if you guys listen to me, you know that I talk about her all, all the time being like, opinions are, the thing, here's the thing. Tatiana's honest and she's thorough and she knows what she's talking about. And so it just, it's like, as an author, if she's like, this ain't it, You can't even argue with her.

It's just not it. You gotta fix it. [00:33:00] So All that saying, I love Tatiana. I love getting her feedback because I'm like, okay, if she approves, I did it. I'm, I'm fine. Everybody else, I don't say F y'all, but like F y'all, if y'all don't like it's your problem. That's a you problem. But how do you, how do you, how do you go about that balancing, like, you know, writing reviews publicly and also like being an author and knowing how feels to receive like reviews and critical reviews?

Well, I It's very, you know, it's very And I think this is, when you enter indie publishing, because you want community. And one of the ways that authors help each other is to read each other's books. So that happen all the time. so there's a lot of pressure I feel sometimes to read Other people's books to say like, hey, you know, I'm involved in the community and I support other indie authors and so some like i've seen some people are just like Oh, i'll give you five stars for my five stars like just a exchange like i've seen that So early [00:34:00] 2000s Wattpad, it literally me cringe, like what?

Tatiana Obey: And you know like and i've seen you know other authors yeah, they go in and Review other people's books, honestly. But the thing is, like, there are those authors that get sensitive over four stars, you know? So you go in and, and you're like, oh, you know, I'm trying to support you. I'm trying to help you.

And then, you know, like, You're like, ah, four stars. And they're like, ah. So, you know, like, so there's a lot of, landmines to kind of like walk around. And, you know, there's some, like, I know like traditional public, some traditional publishing authors, like once they get a contract, they're like, oh yeah, we just delete our Goodreads page, you know, they're like, you know, just don't review or anything like that.

So, so when you become an author, a lot of authors are readers, and so going to have to make a decision and make a choice on how, what you're going to do and what your choice is. and so my choice is, as we, as we were talking about before in regards to visibility, especially visibility for [00:35:00] indie authors, you know, I don't, in this space, especially in regards to epic fantasy, I don't think there's a lot of people talking about.

You know like black indie authors and epic fantasy You know when I was publishing I you know, I just don't see didn't see a lot of people prioritizing that stuff. So I wanted to make Other People More Visible. I wanted to be like, you know, like, these books is good. Even if I've read it and even if it's not for me, I can say, oh, this book wasn't for me, but this book, you know, like, if you like this, if you like this, if you like this, you might enjoy this book.

so the reason why I decided to continue reviewing books is because, no, no, It feels like just a big space, you know, like there's the Melanin Library and there's all of the stuff that you do on your podcast highlighting, you know, indie authors. I know you had The Fall That Saved Us on the previous episode.

That was a really great book. but, you know.

C. M. Lockhart: [00:36:00] slight plug, you guys can go listen to it on the podcast on the channel. Just get into it because it was a great conversation. Okay, continue.

Tatiana Obey: Yeah, but when we talk about visibility for authors, as we said, it's that hype. It's that conversation around a book that gets people picking it up, so if no one's talking about it, like who's, who's going to ever know, and you know, like I've You, when you first get into indie publishing, you believe people.

You they're like, oh yeah, there's no black authors writing epic fantasy. Oh yeah, there's no like, you know, writing good epic fantasy. And then you, you take the time and you find them and you read them and you're like, this isn't true. You know, a lack of visibility is not a lack of quality.

And, and, you know, and I just, I'm just like, I think it's just something I'm really passionate about and I'm just like, the, we do have great books. It's just no one knows about them. No one's talking about them. so the reason why I review is to, you know, like highlight, just highlight those books that I think needs uplifting.

C. M. Lockhart: And I think [00:37:00] That is really important, I think. Also, as an indie author, I Okay, this. I Have a different approach you do, right? Because, like I you, your own Goodreads, and you, post publicly, right? Which, honestly, you're, you're an author and you to this podcast, then you more likely than are in enough community spaces on the internet understand that, you know, the common consensus that authors should not be in reader because like Tatiana mentioned, you know, There are authors who get upset if you rate their book anything less than 5 stars.

how dare Like, oh my gosh. Chill, Janet, okay? It's not It's not that serious. But, it's also one of those things where it's just like, they're, I don't think I've met Any successful authors who did not start out being readers first, right? And then migrated over to, I want to write my own [00:38:00] stories or, you know, got the time courage or whatever that journey is.

From taking plunge from, I'm reading books now I'm writing them for myself, right? And, In the beginning, it can be very difficult to navigate kind of that chasm that kind of creates between those two things. Because on the one hand, yeah, you're an author, and you know what like to for someone to be like, Oh, I didn't like the book, or I DNF'd it, or, you know, ah, why would this happen?

Grr! And you're like, wow, you, or don't know if you've this experience, like people just make up things that weren't even in the book. You're like, did you even read my I'm a little lost, right? But then as a reader, like said, there are many out there that don't that don't get hyped up, that people don't know about.

And it's like, okay, I'm not gonna pretend like I'm not a reader anymore, right? as an author, I'm not gonna pretend like I don't benefit of a review, right? I think it's deciding how you're going to about it. And I think the way you're doing it, [00:39:00] I respect it so much because it's like, also, we've talked about this kind of you privately, but also, especially as Black authors, you want other Black people to review your book.

You know, it's like, even if your book is for everyone, obviously, we're not We're not like, no one outside of our target demographic can the books. That's not the idea. But the idea is I do want people within my target demographic to read and review the book. So it's just like, As a Black reader who reads epic fantasy, it's like, that review holds a little bit more weight.

I know that for me, you know, when I have a review, like, from you or someone that I know who is actively talking about fantasy, like, not just, you know, that blue and red right? But like, generally, Like they, they talk about fantasy and the things that they like it. It's like, Oh, okay.

Your opinion now holds a little bit more weight. Right. And you're, you talk audience that follows you because talk about And now I'm [00:40:00] potentially reaching more people who are, who who may like the give it a try, you know? 

Tatiana Obey: It was a part of my decision too, because, you know, if I want, if I'm trying to uplift these books and I want, you know, people to pick them up, I also have to gain their trust. And trust is through honesty, you know? So I'm going to be honest about the books, I'm going to be honest about what the strengths were and honest about what the weaknesses are, so that people will trust me and they will pick up, you know, like, pick up the book.

And, you know, I know, That, that's not for everyone, but, you know, seeing how that word to mouth relationship is, there's a lot of trust, you know, dependent on trust. And, so I want to be honest, like, I'll say like, hey, this book wasn't for me, but I think this book is perfect for you, if it's a book that I do not think was ready for publishing and,

C. M. Lockhart: Y'all see how [00:41:00] she worded that? You see how she rips apart your little feelings?

Tatiana Obey: I, you know, I probably will not, you know, post anything about it. Like, you know, I won't, I won't say anything about that if it's less than a two star, I won't. I won't say anything.

C. M. Lockhart: But know, I think. One, I that's valid, and I, I personally, genuinely appreciate you and fact that you review books you're honest because you are one of people I actually pay attention to. There are not a lot of people that were, if they, I don't know if they like or dislike. But depending how they review a book, I pay attention to for myself, right? I pay attention you. I pay attention to Veena, Ms. Reader. I pay attention to the Golden Books, uh, Golden Bookstagram, I think it's 

Tatiana Obey: Golden Book Hunter?

C. M. Lockhart: Yes, the Golden Book on And I also pay to couple of BookTubers who still on the fence. We gotta, we gotta see a little bit. But there couple where I'm, also, like, a Capri's Book Island. I [00:42:00] also pay attention books she likes and stuff. But only because, I appreciate when people don't just DNF a book or tell me that they didn't like a book.

They tell me why. What was thing that made them put it down or walk away from Or what was thing they really enjoyed about it? And for me, I couldn't do good reads mostly because, I don't know, the way my brain is like, I can't write you an actual, like, long, detailed breakdown, I don't want to do Like, that's just, that's just me. who I am personally. But. I do enjoy talking about books on and on the podcast and things like that. Like, I want to give authors their space to shine because I also feel like kind of under, it's an underrated thing, but the best person talk about their is author themselves, right?

And also just being able to be conversation with people where just like, okay, you wrote book. I respect you for writing a book. Even if I didn't like the you have a and you have. [00:43:00] You know, a space here where even the book is not for me, this is your stage, right? Like, sell whoever is listening to it because very least of people listening, I hope if you're listening to this podcast and watching channel, you like Black Authors and their books, you know?

So it's like, there's an audience. Somebody may get into it, somebody may it and that may be your next reader, you know? I just can't person to be like, Oh my God, great. I don't know. I didn't read the book. except like, and I, and I generally try to be honest about that. Like, awareness.

telling you about the book. I ain't saying that I read it. I'm not saying going to read it. If I did read it, I will tell if I didn't, can't help

Tatiana Obey: yeah.

C. M. Lockhart: But you also touched on something that I feel again, could have whole conversation about. Because. You mentioned, you know, being honest, and I feel there needs to be a conversation within author community a whole about accepting honesty when comes to feedback, because I feel like so many people err on the side hyping each up, like, we're all in this together.

I'm like, is not High School [00:44:00] Musical. Like, we are not even, on any And such a dumb thing. I don't know why analogies, probably because family growing up sports. I don't understand them. So the analogy is wrong, whatever, sorry, watch them. But it's kind of like, even on a basketball team, there's still people sitting on the There are some people who are going to be playing the game and some people are going to be watching. Everyone's not going to be the same level. And you know how you get off the bench? practice and you someone watching you you like, Hey, need do this. You can work on this.

You need to improve. This, this is how you become a starter, right? And I feel like within the community, there's so many people hyping each up where it becomes a, what is it?

Tatiana Obey: Echo Chamber.

C. M. Lockhart: it comes, yes, it becomes an echo chamber of, Oh my God, you're so good. Oh my God, you're so great. So when you get any piece of criticism, any piece of feedback, it's automatically defensive.

It's automatically like, how dare you not like my book? Like, how dare you like somebody else's book more than mine? just like, y'all are [00:45:00] weird because. It completely removes the reality some books come to people at the right time, right? There, there's life that factors into when you read a right?

And then, like said, every book is not everyone. Everyone's not going to like the book. Everyone's not going appreciate the journey. And that is just a of the journey. Being an author, but I feel like more authors need to get comfortable receiving feedback and appreciating because here's the thing.

I, like I said, I joke around about like, you know, my feelings being hurt, right? Whenever I get feedback, Not just from you, but like also from, from Ben from Law and I need y'all to know Author Council, I love them to bits are literally some of my favorite women in the I appreciate them no end and will sing their praises, but also. I'm a sensitive girly, okay? And when they're like, Oh my gosh, Elsie, you need it, I'm like, I work so hard! What you mean? Right? That's internal, but then also Thank you for [00:46:00] telling me, so that I don't go out the house looking Right? So I'm not on the internet being like, Hi you guys, this is my best, and really And it could have been better, right? I feel like more people need that in their lives. And just hearing it and being like, okay, it sucks that your first draft or your second draft or your third draft isn't perfect, but that's literally why we have critique partners.

That's literally why have beta readers. literally why we have whole systems place to have people give you feedback because it's understood on very base level that you can only go so far by yourself before you need an outside opinion. 

Tatiana Obey: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, feedback helps you grow. Like, that's how you grow your craft. Like, that's how you grow your writing. I mean, you know, like, it may hurt. But like, that's how. You grow. And what, one of my favorite things about our particular community in regards to black women and black fantasy readers and you know, like, they are honest as fuck.

C. M. Lockhart: sure 

Tatiana Obey: [00:47:00] They very much are. So you, once, once you know, you know, you got their, they're like, oh yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good.

C. M. Lockhart: It's good. And that's why I'm always so big on this, YouTube channel, like find your community, find the people who are going be honest with you, who are going tell you so that when you, when they tell you that you did a good job, you know, that they're not gassing you, you know, that they're not lying your face to just be like, Oh, I don't want to hurt feelings, hurt my feelings, please.

I'm going to cry about it, but then I'm going And that's what I need to right. And, shout out to Veena also in the chat. She comment, comment talking about, there's so much toxic positivity in the author space, and then she was surprised see that some authors last year said that they don't rate all of their friends books, five stars.

And here's the thing. I don't rate all of my author friends books, stars. That's like we can be friends and respect you as person. I can even respect you as an author but I'm also not going [00:48:00] to jeopardize my platform in an effort to hype you up, right? Like your book deserved five stars I'll give it five stars or if it close because like if it is as long it is deserving praise then I will rate it accordingly, but I'm also not gonna be like How do I say nicely?

I don't know I write books about black all that that comes being not a nice person, right?I'm I'm not gonna out here being like yeah, look at my friend. That's my best friend and I'm like read the book. It's not on shelf, but you know Go off. Like, no, I'm not, I'm not that person.

Tatiana Obey: Yeah, I'm, yeah. I was say, I'm a compromiser. I'm, I'm a, like, in the middle because You know, knowing that, for example, on Amazon, a 5 star or a 2 star rates differently than it does on Goodreads, right? The algorithm is much more negative towards an author on Amazon regards [00:49:00] to that. Like, I understand the financial and marketing aspects of the stars.

Right? so my compromise in the way that I review is on Goodreads, I give everyone a five stars, kind of just for a participation trophy, but my review is very honest and I'll tell you what, what my personal rating was so that you can, you know,

C. M. Lockhart: Adjust.

Tatiana Obey: Adjust it accordingly. so I'll be honest in the, in the text and, but you know, so, so because I am looking to raise visibility for indie authors and I'm not going to give an indie author who only has like, Three ratings, you know, a know, I'm like, to me, that's because I read a lot of a lot of them that don't have a lot of ratings to begin with.

So I'm like, okay, this is my compromise. Here's five stars. You did a great job publishing. Here's my honest opinion.

C. M. Lockhart: And I guess my take on it is just slightly different only of the experiences that I've had in the past, where it's just like, I [00:50:00] recognize that As my is growing the Melanin Library and Written In Melanin, my books general, right? I'm very fortunate be say that, like, so there lots of people, I don't know how many, to there plenty who have read We Origin who have never come my platform who know me, right?

And I have kind of seen for better, for worse, the kind of backlash. It can be on me and my platform and my books when I attach my name. Uh, I don't say, what's the opposite uncarefully? Uncarefully not a word, but recklessly, I guess, or just out of a friendship thing to someone else's book. And it's just kind of like, I, it was a hard lesson.

I learned that lesson. And so now I'm kind like, we can be friends, but again, unless I am willing to stand toes down behind your unless I'm willing to pitch your book in conversations with my book or in conversations where you're not around. And I'm like, [00:51:00] okay, voluntarily, someone asked me Hey, you get to recommend three books of any, if your book is going pop up, then yeah, I'll, I'll do the reviews.

Right. But I'm also like, I can't, at this point, I'm like, I can't give you a five star on Goodreads and that's there for posterity, especially, especially if there's like three reviews and it's like, okay, again, that, that's a whole other thing that I'm like, It backfired on me in a really visceral way and ah, okay, my bad.

And I've seen it happen to other authors in traditional publishing. uh, what's her name? Uh, Chloe Gong,

Tatiana Obey: hmm.

C. M. Lockhart: you know, she was reviewing all those books that were like, y'all, like, this is super problematic. Why is she writing a glowing review for this book? Why is she blurbing this book? is she problematic?

And I'm like, there are always, you know, ripple effects things to that nature. so, and so my compromise that is, you Doing things, other to promote an

Tatiana Obey: Yeah.

C. M. Lockhart: if I don't promote you on Twitter, [00:52:00] I'll you on Instagram, I'll promote you on TikTok, my YouTube channel. I'll promote you there all day, every But Goodreads, I am of the mindset where I'm like, at least for I want the reviews that I get from my book to be genuine reviews. Like you read it and you left a review because you wanted to. I don't want I don't want my reviews to be, I don't want to cluttered, but I don't want to say, I don't want them to be reviews from author friends, because I know a lot of people do that as well, where they're like, Hey, like you said in the beginning, review my book five stars, I'll review your book five stars.

And I feel like author friends, depending on who the person is, it really easily fall into that. And I'm just like,

Tatiana Obey: Yeah.

C. M. Lockhart: you feel free.

Tatiana Obey: By way, that's also helped me kind of to navigate this space and everyone has to figure out how to navigate it for themselves. But I found that, you know, people who are receptive to my honesty, those are the people I want around me. You know, like, if you can't take criticism, then, then okay, your journey's [00:53:00] yours.

don't have to go on this together.

C. M. Lockhart: She said, we don't have to be friends on this journey. You can just walk over there. But no, I feel like that's a real because again, uh, a little bit of insight, you author council. Like first conversation had because just so you guys know, I decided to put together the council and none of them knew other before threw in a group chat. I was like, Hey, you guys, we're here.I did ask them individually first. So consent is a right? I asked them all individually. Hey, this is what I'm doing. Would you like to Right. But one of the first conversations that ever had, as a collective group was, okay, so, We're all good with being like really honest in here, right?

So no one's expecting this just to be hype. And we were all like, Oh my God, I'm so glad that you brought that Cause yeah, no, we're going be honest. And it's been game Like even for me recently, you know, getting help from, you know, you Celeste on the blurb Project Necromancer. It's kind of [00:54:00] like, yeah, I would have never thought about things y'all brought up because the world lives in And I'm like, Oh yeah, makes perfect sense. Right.

Tatiana Obey: Yeah, and that's why it's important to have, like, especially all the friends around you because when you're so close to a work, there are things that you can't, you don't see. Like so, you're so close to it and you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense when someone points it out. but yeah, like I was glad we had that conversation and you know, and it felt like home because prior to, I have had run ins where I was honest and people were like, oh, And I was like, okay, all right, whatever.

C. M. Lockhart: Honestly, part of the reason why I made the author council because, you know, I know I believe in that on thisI had against run ins people where just like, okay, do you want me to honest or do you want me to hype up? Like, and they were like, no, I want to be honest.

And the thing is, I feel like a lot authors think when you ask them that, that your is going to be hype, but I'm like, I separated those two options a reason. Right. But okay, be honest. I'm being honest but then that feedback isn't well received. And. [00:55:00] It's just like straight ignored. And my thing, my personal gripe, I don't like wasting time. I don't have a lot of it. So I'm like, okay, if I sit here and I you a breakdown analysis of your story that you asked me to read, that took time out of my day to read, and I'm okay, could be better.

And then you just, like, you just ignore that. I'm never going to give you honest, honest feedback again, because it's like, okay, you it. And that's not what you're looking for. So, but I realized that we just hit an hour and Ben does not podcast goes over hour. we're going to wrap this If you guys want Tatiana on the podcast again, let me know, hit me up because I mean, she's She's Who wouldn't her back on the podcast? But that being said, uh, two questions and then gonna take of here, right? I don't know why I did that that, like we're on TV. I don't, I don't I don't know what's happening.

if you guys are in the chat and have [00:56:00] questions, this is your time it. we may be able do like a little separate segment if you guys multiple ones, but, Tatiana, writing advice that you give anyone just now starting on their journey?

Tatiana Obey: Just not starting out, read. And you know, like not just like read and then share your work because I feel like a lot of beginner authors is very easy to, Keep it with you, or even wait, or you know, like, keep working on it for years until it's ready. But in my experience, you grow the fastest when you finally share your work.

So, beginner writers, don't be afraid to share your work.

C. M. Lockhart: Agreed. Agreed. I can't, can't ramble because I gotta, I gotta wrap this up, gotta wrap this up. Okay. Can you let the people know where on internet can find you, should they want to?

Tatiana Obey: Sure, my handle is at, is at Obey the Author, everywhere on the interwebs, on social media, and then my website is TatyanaOwee. com.

C. M. Lockhart: There [00:57:00] go. Y'all already know there'll be links in the show notes slash description box of you are listening to this at, so get into it. But that is it for episode of the Written In Melanin podcast, you guys. If you'd like to support this podcast, then please share it with someone you may enjoy it.

Join my Patreon at patreon. com forward slash written in melanin, or grab a copy of my books from my website, cmlockhart. com. There are links in the show notes for everything. And thank you guys again so much for listening. time, I hope all your books are full of melanin.